What your talking about is terribly difficult to manage for 95% of deer hunters. Most not able to ID a 2YO buck. Steve Bartylla says about 50% 3YO should be put on hit list at 80% of there antler growth. Then we get to start throwing around the C word to ruffle the feathers. Was surprised how long it took Drurys to start managing there C bucks to improve the deer trying to put on film. Then there is trying to find hunters willing and can trust to harvest the C bucks. One thing I have learned the hard way is that 5YO 125" 6pt is going to show back up next year and be abot 128" if not harvested.

 

No such thing as a cull buck.

 

Another unicorn not worth chasing.

 

Not a unicorn. Its a fact. Genetics and food are not the problem. Trigger control is. 100 bucks born in missouri that all live to 5.5 will average over 150 inches.

 

Its a unicorn. High grading is part of our population . High hunter numbers on a relatively dissected land scape means we will always hunt a high graded herd.

 

No, it doesnt. High grading took a major hit in several states very similar to MIssouri in recent years and the BD results have shown it. Youre beloved Indiana reduced high grading a great deal with their OBR.

 

Other states hunters hunt the exact same way MO HUNTERS DO, the only difference from the IL, IA and Ks is the firearms season placement and that is why Mo has fewer top end buck as a percentage of harvest

 

Those regulations actually REDUCE high grading. What you seem to be missing is that the average bucks potential in MO if not shot until 5.5 is 150+. That fact has NOTHING to do with which deer get shot.

 

Once a spike always a spike !

 

I have a neighbor that still says that.

 

 

Doing this statewide would involve convincing the kind of people who buy butt-out tools and and think CWD doesn’t have any effect on a deer herd.
Lots of science-averse people you’d have to convince.

 

Butt out tool blasphemy won’t be tolerated, Rat.

 

Sure it does. Its a unicorn. My beloved indiana reduced buck harvest , people still high grade 🤣 🤣 😁

 

Of course they still high-grade, just far less than when they could shoot a marginal buck and still keep shooting bucks.

The FACT here is, as I stated for years, the average buck in Missouri will be 150+ if it lives to 5.5 years old.

 

Was reading an article regarding culling 8 pointers. A factor that isn’t considered is the fact that 3-4 yo’s are involved in the majority of the chasing getting ran down during the rut… Add in a poor nutrition year due to drought or a lagging injury it can all add and effect potential going into the following season. If this buck gets killed due to high grading or due to injury or not consuming enough groceries due to environment it’s still a dead deer taken out before he met his genetic potential due to lack of history on the deer and trigger control.

 

Its extremely unlikely that many deer get run down enough during th rut to die. And in a state like Missouri the chances of them still being run down when antler growth starts is also low.

 

Here in most of Benton County even the 4 1/2 yr old bucks will struggle to hit 140s. I have shot several older bucks on my property as have family. The bigger ones were in high 130s a few in low 140s. I shot a tall 8pt few years ago that I know was a 5 1/2 yr old. He scored in the low 130s . Had an older 10pt that I missed in Dec that was shot the next year. He scored 159. That deer is the exception.
We just dont have the AG crops as North MO and other farm country states. The racks here just are not as thick and heavy.
With that said we have improved our deer herd by property/land management. Laying off the younger deer certainly has helped. We have a good number of 3 1/2- 4 1/2 yr olds running around. I am sure there are older bucks out there. I have caught a few on cam that might hit high 140s or 150s.
I am realistic about what constitutes a trophy buck off my place. I know the odds of taking a 160 or 170 or not good. At this point in my life I am very satisfied with a mature buck.

 

Here in most of Benton County even the 4 1/2 yr old bucks will struggle to hit 140s. I have shot several older bucks on my property as have family. The bigger ones were in high 130s a few in low 140s. I shot a tall 8pt few years ago that I know was a 5 1/2 yr old. He scored in the low 130s . Had an older 10pt that I missed in Dec that was shot the next year. He scored 159. That deer is the exception.
We just dont have the AG crops as North MO and other farm country states. The racks here just are not as thick and heavy.
With that said we have improved our deer herd by property/land management. Laying off the younger deer certainly has helped. We have a good number of 3 1/2- 4 1/2 yr olds running around. I am sure there are older bucks out there. I have caught a few on cam that might hit high 140s or 150s.
I am realistic about what constitutes a trophy buck off my place. I know the odds of taking a 160 or 170 or not good. At this point in my life I am very satisfied with a mature buck.

Have someone explain the chart I posted to you. What you are describing is caused by high grading.

 

Good news guys. In order to have bigger bucks you just dont let anybody hunt them 🥳 😁

 

No, you just make them shoot the correct deer.

 

I do agree with one of your statements that if you let 100 deer live from 0.5 to 5.5 years of age, that you will have move 150" deer on the landscape.

I do not believe that the average deer in MO will ever reach an average score of 150" north to south, east to west, across the entire state even if you allow them to live to infinity. But, you will have, on average, bigger deer.

 

All the available data collected by rigorous science says otherwise.

 

If I see a buck I want to shoot, I shoot it. Don’t put much more thought into it. It’s a recreational activity that can provide meat. 🍖

Highgrading is such an elitist term. 🤣

 

If I see a buck I want to shoot, I shoot it. Don’t put much more thought into it. It’s a recreational activity that can provide meat. 🍖

Highgrading is such an elitist term. 🤣

Im not sure someone that is an elitist should throw that term around.

 

Had a guy hunting on a neighbor. He said he would not shoot a buck unless it was 170 or better. I asked him if he understood where he was hunting. Told him he would be waiting a long time in the MO Ozarks for a 170 buck. Guy was full of BS and ended up taking what he called a 150. In reality it would be a stretch to hit 130s. Nothing wrong with a buck that size, but the guy had an unrealistic idea of what our area will produce.

 

Thats because of high grading and peoples attitudes. Your place will absolutely produce what the chart suggests if you dont shoot the best young deer at 2.5 and 3.5

 

I do what some might say is rigorous, peer-reviewed, science. I work with a lot of folks that do the same. What I can say with 100% certainty is that folks can promote themselves, their work, and their data to the highest of levels while everyone else just sits back and says "yeah, nothing fantastic about that". I'm pretty skeptical of most anyone. Except of myself of course.

 

Some folks use a lot of wiggle room with their inferences when they have a gullible audience wanting to believe every buck will get really big.

 

What are 3 variables that produce big deer antlers



The three primary variables that produce big deer antlers are
age, nutrition, and genetics. All three factors must be aligned for a buck to achieve its maximum antler potential.

1. Age
As a buck gets older, its antlers generally become larger and more complex.

• A buck reaches its prime antler size between 4 and 7 years of age.
• While a 1.5-year-old buck's antlers may only be 10–25% of their maximum potential, a 2.5-year-old buck's antlers can nearly double in size to reach about half their full size.
• Past their prime, very old bucks often show a decline in antler size.

2. Nutrition
A deer's diet has a profound effect on antler growth.

• Protein: Bucks require a high-protein diet (around 16%) during the spring and summer antler-growing season to achieve optimal growth. Younger deer require an even higher percentage of protein for their developing bodies.
• Minerals: Key minerals like calcium and phosphorus are critical for building dense, strong antlers. Deer can get these minerals from rich vegetation and mineral licks, and they can even draw reserves from their skeletal system during the growth cycle.
• Habitat quality: A healthy and diverse habitat that provides a constant source of nutrient-rich forage is essential for antler development.

3. Genetics
A buck's genetic makeup determines its potential for antler size and shape.

• A deer inherits its genetic potential for antler growth from both its mother and father.
• While genetics establishes the upper limits for antler growth, external factors like nutrition and age determine if that potential is ever reached.
• In wild deer populations, it is nearly impossible to manage genetics through selective harvesting alone. However, allowing bucks with superior genetics to reach maturity can increase the chances of passing those traits on to the next generation.

Scientist have always said areas with best soils have most BC entry's. There are many more variables other than the big 3 but trigger control is not all that.

 

What are 3 variables that produce big deer antlers



The three primary variables that produce big deer antlers are
age, nutrition, and genetics. All three factors must be aligned for a buck to achieve its maximum antler potential.

1. Age
As a buck gets older, its antlers generally become larger and more complex.

• A buck reaches its prime antler size between 4 and 7 years of age.
• While a 1.5-year-old buck's antlers may only be 10–25% of their maximum potential, a 2.5-year-old buck's antlers can nearly double in size to reach about half their full size.
• Past their prime, very old bucks often show a decline in antler size.

2. Nutrition
A deer's diet has a profound effect on antler growth.

• Protein: Bucks require a high-protein diet (around 16%) during the spring and summer antler-growing season to achieve optimal growth. Younger deer require an even higher percentage of protein for their developing bodies.
• Minerals: Key minerals like calcium and phosphorus are critical for building dense, strong antlers. Deer can get these minerals from rich vegetation and mineral licks, and they can even draw reserves from their skeletal system during the growth cycle.
• Habitat quality: A healthy and diverse habitat that provides a constant source of nutrient-rich forage is essential for antler development.

3. Genetics
A buck's genetic makeup determines its potential for antler size and shape.

• A deer inherits its genetic potential for antler growth from both its mother and father.
• While genetics establishes the upper limits for antler growth, external factors like nutrition and age determine if that potential is ever reached.
• In wild deer populations, it is nearly impossible to manage genetics through selective harvesting alone. However, allowing bucks with superior genetics to reach maturity can increase the chances of passing those traits on to the next generation.

Scientist have always said areas with best soils have most BC entry's. There are many more variables other than the big 3 but trigger control is not all that.

Now... Assign each factors a percentage....

 

im after a 150" doe

 

funny you say that... few days ago at work this guy comes up and shows me a pic of a crazy looking velvet "buck" somebody killed in MO that ended up actually being a doe.

will see if I can get access to the picture

 

Naw, probably still chasing the 170+ somewhere in the Ozarks

 

Super scientific data😂 went back and reread, so you are saying 50% of all bucks that get to 5.5 years will not score 159 and many of them not even close. Hawk, where dinks find this incredibly Earth shattering data!💩

 

Bob, Your inability to read a simple chart is why we cant have nice things.

 

Such a revelation, I said 20 years aga the average growth of a buck is 13% year to year. And I was wrong exceptional growth year to year would be 13%.

 

Unicorn hunter 🥳

 

I would assume hawk that since you don't subscribe to high grading bucks, that you shoot a 150"+ every year.

Please post all your pics, with the year and location, to prove that you practice what you preach and that you're not full of crap.
Has to be your picture with the bucks, no subs.

 

I dont shoot many bucks because I dont shoot dinks. Ive not shot a buck since 2004 that hasn't went on the wall.

 

I really only highgrade my squirrels these days. Highgrade squirrels have the most tender rib meat, and lets face it, tender squirrel rib meat is why we put the effort in to harvest them. 👍🏻🐿

 

Squeerl ribs on the grill is the bomb ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,What is this high grading ...is that when a fork horn and a 8 come in together and you shoot the 8 pt/? ...............or 3 separate 8s come through at different times ,,,,but the second one is bigger so you wait till he comes back .....smh

 

We didn’t want to high grade so we let this spike have a pass. I told the boys if he grows into his tail he will be a giant!