[horntagger]

True, they do all of those things but none of those things that you mention aside from the hog issue are things that would make any tangible difference to the turkey population. Your quote above stated it well, female harvest can be an issue but it has to be at a level that results in an increase in mortality, and thats just not what is being seen in MO or any other state. Its very similar to Voluntary Restraint in waterfow. That was a program that was hyped to protect hens and increase production but after decades of the practice it was found that natural mortality of hens was high enough that hunters had no impact on populations of ducks or hens. Its the same with turkeys. I wish it were as simple as changing some regulations and having more turkeys but it isnt.

Then explain why this research has been ignored on fall harvest

.
ALDO LEOPOLD - "SURPLUS THEORY"
The Wild Turkey World has corrupted Aldo Leopold’s theory. – Wild Turkey Hens are going to die anyway – Might as well kill them in the fall.

Nearly 100 years ago Aldo Leopold, the father of game management, coined the term “harvestable surplus.” The intended meaning of the term is that SOME wildlife species and populations may produce more young in a given year than can survive to the following year.

Which as already been proving wrong with wild turkey decline – Wild Turkey Hens are NOT producing enough young in past 20 years in Missouri!

Those individuals doomed to die over the winter, for example, represent the “surplus” in the population. Leopold observed that those surplus animals could be killed by hunters during the fall, instead of succumbing to winter mortality, and there would be little impact on the population. So, in theory, hunting would be sustainable because the population would not change.


Before: You read the information below:
Please write down the research that shows shooting a Wild Turkey Hen during a population decline has zero implications to the population!!! - Not 1 models done on a computer behind a desk but field study!

EFFECTS OF FALL EITHER-SEX HUNTING ON SURVIVAL IN IOWA WILD TURKEY POPULATION - Iowa Research presented at the Wild Turkey Syposium
Survival rates and patterns we observed before the initiation of fall hunting were not unusual.

Annual survival rates were >50% for adult turkeys. Spring hunting caused the greatest mortality in males, and a combination of illegal spring hunting and PREDATION DURNING NESTING/BROOD-REARING ACTIVITES CAUSED THE MOST HENS DEATHS.

Juveniles of both sexes were exposed to heavier predation during the fall than adults were, and
to legal and illegal hunting-related mortality during the spring-hunting season, but annual
survival rates were not greatly different for juveniles and adults of either sex.

Reported similar annual or seasonal mortality rates, patterns, or causes of death for radio-tagged eastern turkeys Missouri.

The fall-to-spring survival rates we observed for AM suggest that fall hunting may reduce the number of gobblers available to spring hunters, i.e., most AM shot in the fall would otherwise be alive the following spring.

Fall hunting would not affect turkey populations IF FALL HUNTING MORTALITY IS COMPENSATORY that is, if there is a compensating increase in survival during other periods of the year to offset fall hunting, or if birds shot by fall hunters would have died anyway to some other agent. NEITHER OF THESE SITUATION EXISTED DURING THIS STUDY. AVERAGE ANNUAL SURVIVAL RATES OF ALL AGE-SEX CLASSES DECLINED AFTER FALL HUNTERS WAS INTRODUCED.

This implies that fall hunting may affect future turkey populations. SHOOTHING ADULT TURKEYS IN POOR PRODUCTION YEARS MAY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF HENS AVAILABLE TO NEST as well as reduce gobbler numbers available to hunters. A REDUCTION IN HENS COULD REDUCE RECRUITMENT AND TOTAL TURKEY NUMBERS FURTHER AND PROLONG THE RECOVER FROM POOR PRODUCTION THAN WOULD HAVE OCCURRED WITHOUT FALL HUNTING.

 

[hesseu]

1) State owned land should be a model of prime habitat. It is not. However, there are areas in which TSI and prescribed burns are taking place to help with habitat. Unfortunately, there is way too much work for such small crews. ,
2) 89% of land in the state of Missouri is privately owned. We must take it upon ourselves to maximize and manage what we own to provide the best habitat as possible for all species. We must create this movement and educate so we can maximize the amount of acreage in Missouri doing the same. TSI, old field management, prescribed fires, etc. are in dire need.

 

[hesseu]

so far it seems you guys agree predator control works

believe I am not going to spend one second looking, there are studies out there that support predator removal increasing population levels.

Where? What studies with controls?

 

[20']

Mr. 20,

Our podcast hosted Dr Will Gulsby and Dr Marcus Lashley when they introduced their WIld Turkey Science Podcast. It is an excellent listen if you want more turkey knowledge. If that agent said that then they would be presuming that the person already had maxed out their habitat projects and had high quality brood habitat in place. In that situation trapping may have an additional benefit of 10-20% more turkey production. That what the anecdotal evidence has shown. The 2 researchers mentioned above are currently designing a study to assess what impacts, if any, trapping nest predators has on turkeys. I for one hope they get funding and a study in place to determine if trapping weill help those with great habitat. It was noted repeatedly though that trapping will not just produce turkeys. You must have the habitat in place, specifically brood rearing habitat and that will give you about 80% of your birds. Trapping MAY add an additional 20%. Ill link the podcast for you.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4iykUNtExVgEWuyMM3y2NS?si=452ea1ad294b4043

To me it seems like everytime you guys say something positive about trapping you say t5 negative things. A p[erson listening to this podcast may just throw up their hands and say nothing I do will help....

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

Habitat Only - Brood Cover - Even in the hay day of turkeys they could only get to 3.5 poults per hen in Missouri

Ever seen a bird dog on point in the best habitat money can buy on the big quail estates, Best habitat you can provide a pheasant or quail.
View attachment 238442
You think a Raccoon, Opossum, Skunk, Fox, Bobcat, or Coyote just to survive, can’t do the same thing in the best habitat money can buy, 365 days a year. You’re kidding yourself.

Mr. Horntagger,

Are you thinking that the poult to hen ratios should have been higher? Yes, a predator can likely smell poults like a bird dog can but in quality brood habitat the birds can elude the predator. Even if they cant most poults are not being eaten. They are dying because they get too hot or too cold or wet due to poor brood habitat. With poults we should just chalk up half of each brood will get eaten. Its the other half we need to keep alive. And they will live if we give them high quality cover where they can move around quickly and efficiently, hide, forage efficiently and grow as fast as possible to get off the ground. Using your bird dog example, a larger older poult most likely carries more scent than a young poult. If that poult doesn't have the necessary protein available to grow large enough to fly in 12 days and is still on the ground at 14 he is at a much greater risk of being found and eaten. The goal of brood habitat is to get the birds large enough to fly as quick as possible. That protects them from predators. If you have that habitat then trapping will probably help decrease some of the predation at the poult stage, the key word being 'some'.

 

[20']

1) State owned land should be a model of prime habitat. It is not. However, there are areas in which TSI and prescribed burns are taking place to help with habitat. Unfortunately, there is way too much work for such small crews. ,
2) 89% of land in the state of Missouri is privately owned. We must take it upon ourselves to maximize and manage what we own to provide the best habitat as possible for all species. We must create this movement and educate so we can maximize the amount of acreage in Missouri doing the same. TSI, old field management, prescribed fires, etc. are in dire need.

I agree the 11% should be a model for the other 89%.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

so far it seems you guys agree predator control works

believe I am not going to spend one second looking, there are studies out there that support predator removal increasing population levels.

There certainly are studies that show predator control can work. Will and Marcus cover those studies in the podcast. Listen to the entire predator series and let me know what you think. Its pretty interesting stuff. I learned a lot from that series.

 

[20']

nice discussion fellas!!!

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

Then explain why this research has been ignored on fall harvest

.
ALDO LEOPOLD - "SURPLUS THEORY"
The Wild Turkey World has corrupted Aldo Leopold’s theory. – Wild Turkey Hens are going to die anyway – Might as well kill them in the fall.

Nearly 100 years ago Aldo Leopold, the father of game management, coined the term “harvestable surplus.” The intended meaning of the term is that SOME wildlife species and populations may produce more young in a given year than can survive to the following year.

Which as already been proving wrong with wild turkey decline – Wild Turkey Hens are NOT producing enough young in past 20 years in Missouri!

Those individuals doomed to die over the winter, for example, represent the “surplus” in the population. Leopold observed that those surplus animals could be killed by hunters during the fall, instead of succumbing to winter mortality, and there would be little impact on the population. So, in theory, hunting would be sustainable because the population would not change.


Before: You read the information below:
Please write down the research that shows shooting a Wild Turkey Hen during a population decline has zero implications to the population!!! - Not 1 models done on a computer behind a desk but field study!

EFFECTS OF FALL EITHER-SEX HUNTING ON SURVIVAL IN IOWA WILD TURKEY POPULATION - Iowa Research presented at the Wild Turkey Syposium
Survival rates and patterns we observed before the initiation of fall hunting were not unusual.

Annual survival rates were >50% for adult turkeys. Spring hunting caused the greatest mortality in males, and a combination of illegal spring hunting and PREDATION DURNING NESTING/BROOD-REARING ACTIVITES CAUSED THE MOST HENS DEATHS.

Juveniles of both sexes were exposed to heavier predation during the fall than adults were, and
to legal and illegal hunting-related mortality during the spring-hunting season, but annual
survival rates were not greatly different for juveniles and adults of either sex.

Reported similar annual or seasonal mortality rates, patterns, or causes of death for radio-tagged eastern turkeys Missouri.

The fall-to-spring survival rates we observed for AM suggest that fall hunting may reduce the number of gobblers available to spring hunters, i.e., most AM shot in the fall would otherwise be alive the following spring.

Fall hunting would not affect turkey populations IF FALL HUNTING MORTALITY IS COMPENSATORY that is, if there is a compensating increase in survival during other periods of the year to offset fall hunting, or if birds shot by fall hunters would have died anyway to some other agent. NEITHER OF THESE SITUATION EXISTED DURING THIS STUDY. AVERAGE ANNUAL SURVIVAL RATES OF ALL AGE-SEX CLASSES DECLINED AFTER FALL HUNTERS WAS INTRODUCED.

This implies that fall hunting may affect future turkey populations. SHOOTHING ADULT TURKEYS IN POOR PRODUCTION YEARS MAY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF HENS AVAILABLE TO NEST as well as reduce gobbler numbers available to hunters. A REDUCTION IN HENS COULD REDUCE RECRUITMENT AND TOTAL TURKEY NUMBERS FURTHER AND PROLONG THE RECOVER FROM POOR PRODUCTION THAN WOULD HAVE OCCURRED WITHOUT FALL HUNTING.

View attachment 238443

Mr. Horntagger,

Less than 1% of hens in Missouri are harvested during season. research confirms that around 40% of all hens die during the year. In that scenario hen harvest of less than 1% will not have an impact on the population trajectory. Aldo Leopold was a great scientist but there have been 100 years of data collected since his writings. We know much more about hunting's impact on game populations now. The waterfowl world has done a wonderful job researching this.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

1) State owned land should be a model of prime habitat. It is not. However, there are areas in which TSI and prescribed burns are taking place to help with habitat. Unfortunately, there is way too much work for such small crews. ,
2) 89% of land in the state of Missouri is privately owned. We must take it upon ourselves to maximize and manage what we own to provide the best habitat as possible for all species. We must create this movement and educate so we can maximize the amount of acreage in Missouri doing the same. TSI, old field management, prescribed fires, etc. are in dire need.

Mr. Hesseu,

Those are good points. Some land is managed for different purposes. MDC has admitted that they kind of just thought turkeys would take care of themselves and they dont really manage for them specifically on many of their lands. That will change I believe. Hunters need to remember that when they go to a public area and find an over grown weed patch where they think a beautiful food plot should be. A deer hunter wont be happy and will say MDC is not managing well when they see quail and turkeys being managed for.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

To me it seems like everytime you guys say something positive about trapping you say t5 negative things. A p[erson listening to this podcast may just throw up their hands and say nothing I do will help....

Mr 20,

Which podcast? The one with Dr Elmore? He states lots of things that will help. I believe its around the 1 hr mark where he gets in to it.

 

[horntagger]

Mr. Horntagger,

Are you thinking that the poult to hen ratios should have been higher? Yes, a predator can likely smell poults like a bird dog can but in quality brood habitat the birds can elude the predator. Even if they cant most poults are not being eaten. They are dying because they get too hot or too cold or wet due to poor brood habitat. With poults we should just chalk up half of each brood will get eaten. Its the other half we need to keep alive. And they will live if we give them high quality cover where they can move around quickly and efficiently, hide, forage efficiently and grow as fast as possible to get off the ground. Using your bird dog example, a larger older poult most likely carries more scent than a young poult. If that poult doesn't have the necessary protein available to grow large enough to fly in 12 days and is still on the ground at 14 he is at a much greater risk of being found and eaten. The goal of brood habitat is to get the birds large enough to fly as quick as possible. That protects them from predators. If you have that habitat then trapping will probably help decrease some of the predation at the poult stage, the key word being 'some'.

To maintain a balance approximately 2.5 poults per hen must be produce. When this ratio drops below 2.5 a population is decline indicated and when it goes above 2.5 an increase occurs.

Please name the biological reason for killing hen for past 7 years? Missouri can't even get into a 2 year cycle.


Wild Turkeys 2 year cycle!

If you have a poor reproductive year next year, then you’re not going to have many jennies or jakes.

Then the year after that you’re not going to have many adult males or 2-year-olds the primary bird hunters take across the country.

It takes 2 years after a poor reproductive year to have fewer adult birds.

It takes 2 years after a good reproductive year to have more adult birds.

NC research update: Largest private land turkey study | Wild Turkey Science #10 – Per Dr. Chris Moorman


Poult to hen Missouri

0.8	2016
0.8	2017
0.9	2018
0.9	2019
1	2020
1	2021
1	2022

 

[horntagger]

Mr. Horntagger,

Less than 1% of hens in Missouri are harvested during season. research confirms that around 40% of all hens die during the year. In that scenario hen harvest of less than 1% will not have an impact on the population trajectory. Aldo Leopold was a great scientist but there have been 100 years of data collected since his writings. We know much more about hunting's impact on game populations now. The waterfowl world has done a wonderful job researching this.

Which of the last 7 years has a hen replace her self? Even the 2nd in five year biologist said the hens are not replace themselves in the short term or long term.


Missouri Department of Conservation Quail Biologist - if 6% of the quail are making thru the breeding season it just COMPOUNDS THE NUMBER OF NEST AND NEST SUCCESS - Wild Turkey hens compounded -

Total Killed

174453

It's funny to me Wild turkey hens are the only animal in the world that if you kill it, it doesn't affect population. That might have been true in 2004 but everything is not equal anymore..

I forgot it really doesn't matter what I think or you think or anyone on here thinks - MDC controls it and will never change it no matter how bad it gets.

 

[horntagger]

Mr. Horntagger,

Are you thinking that the poult to hen ratios should have been higher? Yes, a predator can likely smell poults like a bird dog can but in quality brood habitat the birds can elude the predator. Even if they cant most poults are not being eaten. They are dying because they get too hot or too cold or wet due to poor brood habitat. With poults we should just chalk up half of each brood will get eaten. Its the other half we need to keep alive. And they will live if we give them high quality cover where they can move around quickly and efficiently, hide, forage efficiently and grow as fast as possible to get off the ground. Using your bird dog example, a larger older poult most likely carries more scent than a young poult. If that poult doesn't have the necessary protein available to grow large enough to fly in 12 days and is still on the ground at 14 he is at a much greater risk of being found and eaten. The goal of brood habitat is to get the birds large enough to fly as quick as possible. That protects them from predators. If you have that habitat then trapping will probably help decrease some of the predation at the poult stage, the key word being 'some'.

This is what doing nothing to the regulations looks like. -

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

To maintain a balance approximately 2.5 poults per hen must be produce. When this ratio drops below 2.5 a population is decline indicated and when it goes above 2.5 an increase occurs.

Please name the biological reason for killing hen for past 7 years? Missouri can't even get into a 2 year cycle.


Wild Turkeys 2 year cycle!

If you have a poor reproductive year next year, then you’re not going to have many jennies or jakes.

Then the year after that you’re not going to have many adult males or 2-year-olds the primary bird hunters take across the country.

It takes 2 years after a poor reproductive year to have fewer adult birds.

It takes 2 years after a good reproductive year to have more adult birds.

NC research update: Largest private land turkey study | Wild Turkey Science #10 – Per Dr. Chris Moorman


Poult to hen Missouri

0.8	2016
0.8	2017
0.9	2018
0.9	2019
1	2020
1	2021
1	2022

Mr Horntagger,

There is no biological reason to kill hens the last 7 years. There has never beenany biological reason to kill hens or any other turkey. The reason they are shot is for recreation. The value of that recreation is great than the biological or population benefit of the amount of hens that are removed. If we were to see large numbers of hens killed yearly it would be a problem biologically. At current levels it is what is called compensatory. The harvest of those hens does not increase the overall mortality of the population.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

Which of the last 7 years has a hen replace her self? Even the 2nd in five year biologist said the hens are not replace themselves in the short term or long term.


Missouri Department of Conservation Quail Biologist - if 6% of the quail are making thru the breeding season it just COMPOUNDS THE NUMBER OF NEST AND NEST SUCCESS - Wild Turkey hens compounded -

Total Killed

174453

It's funny to me Wild turkey hens are the only animal in the world that if you kill it, it doesn't affect population. That might have been true in 2004 but everything is not equal anymore..

I forgot it really doesn't matter what I think or you think or anyone on here thinks - MDC controls it and will never change it no matter how bad it gets.

Mr Horntagger,

Hen quail mortality is much higher than hen turkey mortality. Its a much different species in that aspect. Waterfowl are looked at in the same way as turkeys as far as harvest. So are pheasants and quail. Rabbits are similar. Most small game that reproduces in high numbers per nesting are looked at in that same way. there are some really good articles put out by Ducks Unlimited that explain this.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

This is what doing nothing to the regulations looks like. -

View attachment 238444

Mr Horntagger,

That graphic doesshow what doing nothing looks like. It also shows what doing everything looks like. The lines are identical.

 

[horntagger]

Mr Horntagger,

There is no biological reason to kill hens the last 7 years. There has never beenany biological reason to kill hens or any other turkey. The reason they are shot is for recreation. The value of that recreation is great than the biological or population benefit of the amount of hens that are removed. If we were to see large numbers of hens killed yearly it would be a problem biologically. At current levels it is what is called compensatory. The harvest of those hens does not increase the overall mortality of the population.

On paper - Not with boots on the ground data. Today's research does not exist. It does not exist for bear and turkeys, it does not exist at todays armadillo population, it does not exist with 7 years of decline, it does not exist with today predator populations and it does not exist in today habitat.

Me you part ways on this issue. Every hen counts. Habitat is usless if the hen does not survive and if the hen does not survive the eggs don't hatch and poult is no born at the very leas and we are just another predator in the mix


2022 - 23 hen mortalities during the 2022 field season.
2022 - Of those hen mortalities, 11 were hens caught in the 2021 field season and 12 were caught in the 2022 field season.
2022 – 14 hen mortalities were attributed to predation, 9 had an unknown cause of death.
Brood Survival
2022 - 10 brood with 38 poults captured. Only 10 poults survived. 13 killed by predators.
2021 Nesting at Glance
79.6% hens incubated a nest
15.4% renested after nest failure
20.9% nest hatched
20.5% of initial nest hatched -------------- FYI nest success was 30+% on average and 40% or even beyond in certain years
25% of 2nd nest attempt hatched
Media nest incubation date 5/15/2021

2022 Nesting at Glance
85.12% hens incubated a nest
18.4% renested after nest failure
20% nest hatched ---------------------- FYI nest success was 30+% on average and 40% or even beyond in certain years
27% of initial nest hatched
11.1% of 2nd nest attempt hatched
Media nest incubation date 5/21/2022


2021 - About 75% of nests failed due to predation of the actual nest, and 8% failed due to predation of the hen that was incubating the clutch.


2022 - 72.5% of nest failed due to nest predation of the actual nest, and 12.5% failed due to predation of the hen that was incubating the clutch.

 

[horntagger]

Mr Horntagger,

That graphic doesshow what doing nothing looks like. It also shows what doing everything looks like. The lines are identical.

No it does not. It show an increase, and increase that could be compounded, I took it off to show what doing nothing looks like. If if was .000000001% chance of increasing the population by not legally shooting hens I would do it in a heart beat.10,000 hens may mean nothing to some people but sure means everything to alot more.

Because 1 hen doesn't matter. Well when you only have max of 3 hens in the past 5 years, it matters a ton to me.

 

[Sawdust and Fire]

No it does not. It show an increase, and increase that could be compounded, I took it off to show what doing nothing looks like. If if was .000000001% chance of increasing the population by not legally shooting hens I would do it in a heart beat.10,000 hens may mean nothing to some people but sure means everything to alot more.

Because 1 hen doesn't matter. Well when you only have max of 3 hens in the past 5 years, it matters a ton to me. View attachment 238445

Mr. Horntagger,

That is an opinion you have every right to. States craft their regulations so that you can decide for yourself if you want to shoot that fall hen or not. If you don't think you can or should then you don't have to. The science behind it is simply that those hens taken will not change the outcome of the population enough to matter and they provide recreation for a segment of hunters. That's really all there is to it. I have seen that graphic in the pst and to me and many others it is a clear depiction of hen harvest not having any impact on the population.

Our podcast is putting together some pictures etc and will be working with landowners to try to help them improve their ground for turkeys. Would you be interested in submitting some pictures or allowing us to assist you and track the progress over time??