Question about smokeless and regular powder for ML's

Discussion in 'Muzzleloaders' started by Doubleshot75, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Doubleshot75

    Doubleshot75 Active Member

    Nov 6, 2006
    I've been researching ML's, and I see that some are approved for smokeless. Is this something I should be looking for when shopping ML's? What are the advantages, disadvantages, etc about the two powder options?

    Thanks in advance,

    DS
     
  2. callaojoe

    callaojoe Máistir an pointe hocht.

    Jan 21, 2004
    N/C Missouri
    I'd stick with the BP/BP substitute rifles if it were me.:shrug:
     

  3. Doubleshot75

    Doubleshot75 Active Member

    Nov 6, 2006
    [rquote=1891426&tid=131749&author=callaojoe]I'd stick with the BP/BP substitute rifles if it were me.:shrug:[/rquote]

    Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference between BP and BP substitute?

    Thansk again..
     
  4. callaojoe

    callaojoe Máistir an pointe hocht.

    Jan 21, 2004
    N/C Missouri
    BP is real black powder, and BP substitute is the stuff like pyrodex, and Triple 7. I am no expert on the topic, but the substitute products are supposed to be less volatile than the real stuff, and that's why places like wally world can sell it off the shelf. The real stuff, is subject to haz-mat rules, and stuff like that.

    Also, the substitute powders claim to be less corrosive, but I am not so sure about that. I think, that is also why the shotgun primer type of ignition came about, as the sub powders are a little harder to touch off...:shrug:

    Basically, I think most fellas shoot the substitute stuff, just cause it's much easier to get a hold of, and you can get it in pellet form.

    If you are just wanting to get into ML shooting, for hunting.... I'd say just go with the 777 or pyrodex stuff. Personally, I like the loose powder, as I think it ignites better, and you can tailor your charge to your rifle. I shoot 90 gr 777 loose behind a 240 gr XTP sabot in my inlines, and they like that just fine. About a 1.5" group at 100 yds.... And that works for me.
     
  5. inkwithattitude

    inkwithattitude Active Member

    Nov 23, 2009
    Caro,MI
    About only advantage I've found is smokeless will gain more distance than a bp, and no smoke.
    Smokeless u might ad well by digi scales and 50 types of powder and bullets to get ur key combo... If'en u want 500 yds outta a ML then go to the ultimate muzzleloader....either way if u just want to hunt just by a bp ml that fits you well!!:wave::02:
     
  6. inkwithattitude

    inkwithattitude Active Member

    Nov 23, 2009
    Caro,MI
    Also powder pressure from a smokeless is way greater then bp, so kind scares me that a wrong charge load could cause a bad, bad accident!
     
  7. 160983

    160983 Guest

    I own the savage ML-II. It can and was made to be able to shoot BP, BP subs, and smokeless. That is the reason I chose that gun. With the smokeless route it requires far less maintenance and cleaning. Another user here posted recently he only cleans his after the season is over. I do the same. My friends who go the BP or BP substitute are always cleaning their guns to maintain accuracy and reliability.

    Regardless of which route you go - getting the proper load worked up for your specific gun is what will bring you accuracy. You need to review what loads the manufacturer recommends for either powder.

    While you may use 100 grains of 777 you will only use maybe 45 grains of smokeless. Safety wise that is critical to know the powder limits of your weapon.

    I will send you a U2U with more information and a couple different websites.:cheers:
     
  8. hun10

    hun10 Senior Member

    Nov 29, 2006
    Up A Creek
    If you are going with smokeless get a centerfire and have at it like the rest of the orange army. Black powder is the only way to go. I am a purist and love the cloud after squeezing the trigger. 777 or pyrodex is good enough for me and I will stick with it.
     
  9. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

    Jan 7, 2010
    Northern Ozarks
    All substitutes are more difficult to ignite than real black powder, by about 200 degrees F. Real black isn't hard to find, you just might have to look a little harder to find it. Personally, out of my muzzleloaders, I've never had a substitute shoot as well as the real stuff. GOEX Clear Shot came the closest out of a couple of my BPC rifles. Shooting mostly flintlocks I'm not going to waste my time or money making the substitutes work. Besides, real black is a lot less expensive than the subs.

    The only muzzleloader I know of that's suitable with smokeless is the Savage. Don't doubt the manufacturer when it says "Black Powder, (or substitutes), Only". As you noted the pressures are vastly higher with smokeless.
     
  10. Trad-hunter

    Trad-hunter Active Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    S W Mo.
    I have always shot pyrodex or 777. I am going to get some real bp and shoot after the ml season is over. I dont want to change anything now. Its too late in the game.
     
  11. 160983

    160983 Guest

    [rquote=1891486&tid=131749&author=inkwithattitude]About only advantage I've found is smokeless will gain more distance than a bp, and no smoke.
    Smokeless u might ad well by digi scales and 50 types of powder and bullets to get ur key combo... If'en u want 500 yds outta a ML then go to the ultimate muzzleloader....either way if u just want to hunt just by a bp ml that fits you well!!:wave::02:[/rquote]

    Another advantage is far less maintenance.

    I didnt have to buy scales. Just used the Lee powder measure set.

    I bought two boxes of bullets. The hornady 45 cal hp/xtp in 250 and 300 grains.

    The only powder I bought was Accurate Arms 5744.

    I bought six different sizes of sabots from MMP sabots.

    The savage is pretty easy to find the proper load combination for. Mine likes 42 grains of powder and the 300 grain HP/Xtp from Hornady. I'm comfortable with this gun to 220 yds. Anymore and I need to upgrade my scope.

    I use this gun throughout the gun and M/L season.

    I do agree if a person is starting out with muzzleloading it might be best to go the traditional route and spend less money. But if a person is already looking at the more expsenive MLs on the market the Savage ML-II will have the option to shoot both.

    To each his own.:cheers:
     
  12. yankee

    yankee Senior Member

    [rquote=1891552&tid=131749&author=Jusadog]I own the savage ML-II. It can and was made to be able to shoot BP, BP subs, and smokeless. That is the reason I chose that gun. With the smokeless route it requires far less maintenance and cleaning. Another user here posted recently he only cleans his after the season is over. I do the same. My friends who go the BP or BP substitute are always cleaning their guns to maintain accuracy and reliability.

    Regardless of which route you go - getting the proper load worked up for your specific gun is what will bring you accuracy. You need to review what loads the manufacturer recommends for either powder.

    While you may use 100 grains of 777 you will only use maybe 45 grains of smokeless. Safety wise that is critical to know the powder limits of your weapon.

    I will send you a U2U with more information and a couple different websites.:cheers:

    [/rquote]one should also note that the 40-45grains is by weight, requires a scale to use it, pre weigh all loads. the 100grains of BP or a BP SUB is by volume with a powder measure, those savages shoot good, but are of no interest to me
     
  13. callaojoe

    callaojoe Máistir an pointe hocht.

    Jan 21, 2004
    N/C Missouri
    My first thought on the smokeless ML's is....

    One little mistake, can be a whole lot more dangerous, than with a BP rifle...... If you are a careful person, and have experience reloading, that would help.... If you are new to ML, i'd stick with BP rifles.

    And, the example I would use is, let's say you work up a 90 gr, 250 gr sabot load with BP. If you mis-measure, even 50 gr's... It will not cause a problem.

    With smokeless, a mistake like that could be fatal.....

    I guess I just never got on board with the whole smokeless ML thing.....:shrug:
     
  14. Judah

    Judah Crossbow supporter

    Oct 19, 2007
    Warren County
    It would take too much away for me not to have the smoke cloud after the shot. :shrug:
     
  15. 160983

    160983 Guest

    [rquote=1891732&tid=131749&author=yankee][rquote=1891552&tid=131749&author=Jusadog]I own the savage ML-II. It can and was made to be able to shoot BP, BP subs, and smokeless. That is the reason I chose that gun. With the smokeless route it requires far less maintenance and cleaning. Another user here posted recently he only cleans his after the season is over. I do the same. My friends who go the BP or BP substitute are always cleaning their guns to maintain accuracy and reliability.

    Regardless of which route you go - getting the proper load worked up for your specific gun is what will bring you accuracy. You need to review what loads the manufacturer recommends for either powder.

    While you may use 100 grains of 777 you will only use maybe 45 grains of smokeless. Safety wise that is critical to know the powder limits of your weapon.

    I will send you a U2U with more information and a couple different websites.:cheers:

    [/rquote]one should also note that the 40-45grains is by weight, requires a scale to use it, pre weigh all loads. the 100grains of BP or a BP SUB is by volume with a powder measure, those savages shoot good, but are of no interest to me[/rquote]

    That is correct. The Lee powder measure set provides a slide scale to convert volume to weight.

    It can be dangerous if a person does not pay attention with the powder and loads 100 grains of smokeless.:cheers:
     
  16. mohunter32

    mohunter32 Senior Member Lifetime Supporting Member

    Jan 15, 2005
    Franklin Co, MO
    I've heard that pyrodex and 777 are easier to clean up than real black powder. But, personally, I don't see that. What do the rest of your guys think?
     
  17. callaojoe

    callaojoe Máistir an pointe hocht.

    Jan 21, 2004
    N/C Missouri
    [rquote=1891757&tid=131749&author=mohunter32]I've heard that pyrodex and 777 are easier to clean up than real black powder. But, personally, I don't see that. What do the rest of your guys think?[/rquote]

    I would agree.....:shrug:
     
  18. 160983

    160983 Guest

    Im not a lobbyist for smokeless powder MLs. Either route has its advantages and disadvantages.:cheers:
     
  19. 160983

    160983 Guest

    [rquote=1891746&tid=131749&author=judah]It would take too much away for me not to have the smoke cloud after the shot. :shrug:[/rquote]

    I do enjoy that part of it. I just didnt enjoy all the cleaning after.:shrug:

    Plus - I believe Yankee has mentioned before - smokeless ML hunting isnt legal everywhere. So a person would have to work up two different loads in that case - smokeless and BP.
     
  20. yankee

    yankee Senior Member

    [rquote=1891757&tid=131749&author=mohunter32]I've heard that pyrodex and 777 are easier to clean up than real black powder. But, personally, I don't see that. What do the rest of your guys think?[/rquote]i don't buy into it, blackpowder is easy to clean with soap and water, the use of a spit patch between shots is all thats needed for black powder and triple se7en, im not sure if a spit patch works on pyro, i can't recall trying 1