PreSeason Planning

Discussion in 'Deer Management, Habitat & Conservation' started by Wooddust, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. Wooddust

    Wooddust Well-Known Member

    Jul 26, 2003
    This time of year, boards fill up with questions and answers and semi answers and just garbage answers to honest questions....I figured it may help some folks to try to kick off the spring with a post of some suggestions observations and thoughts.

    1) Lime and the search for the Holy Grail.

    As my soils prof would say "Boys, its just simple chemistry"...the soil wants to be a ceratin pH based on what its made up of. If its an acidic soil, we add lime. Lime reacts with the soil chemistry and Ph goes up..over time the lime leaches out or the reaction uses it up and the pH goes back down. Your job mr Phelps, is to maintain it at the pH you need for the crop you are trying to grow. Lime in any other form is still lime and the reactivity is different by each form. But lime is the only way to fix the pH....Its about time for the miracle bottles of special secret sauce to show doubt it will say it will change pH overnight, requires no effort, is a liquid and on and on and on...should you be inspired to buy it, please send the money to your local charity of choice first...go get lime or pell lime and ignore these shyster claims. Take a soil sample to a fert dealer or extension office and get it tested. the money spent on kits and probes are better spent on candy bars, good beer and bumper stickers.

    2) Killin fescue

    For the average Joe or Jill, Roundup is your key. All the data and all the research shows that Roundup applied in fall and again in spring is a better treatment option than spring alone. But spring works fine as long as you realize in two years you will do it again. Yes you can use Plateau or Journey and yes its better but only if you are not willing to do re treatments. If you have the interest, desire, and dont mind spraying then good old RU works fine. Always add AMS to the mix and use 1- 2 quarts/acre. Data also strongly supports using less than 10 gallons of water per acre for fescue control with RU...shoot for 7.


    Ammonium Nitrate is going away. Take pictures of it and someday we can tell the grandkids about the good old days. Then move on...Urea works fine so a blend of a 20-10-10 is going to do just fine for your plots.

    Sericea lespedeza

    Kill it. Kill it soon, and keep killin it. Two things work best..PastureGard and Remedy. Spot spray with a 1% solution after its 8 inches tall. Anybody that promotes Roundup for it has no clue since RU tends to burn the top but plants come back a year later...just RU will kill the grass where you spray and allow the sericea seed thats there a wonderful opportunity to germinate with no competition....use the right stuff.


    Good news for the folks with no licence. Milestone is a new thistle killer thats non RUP and its a cool product. K State worked with it as well as MU last year. Little goes a long way...3 ounces per acre.

    Thats a start...need to see some others post some success stories and myth debunking...
  2. Goldtip

    Goldtip New Member

    Aug 29, 2005
    Santa Fe MO
    Great Advice Woodust! Lots of good info there!

  3. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    Roundup, applied CORRECTLY, will kill plants that it lands on.. fact. However, you did indicate that lespedeza seed in the seed bank will germinate after treatment. Roundup is a systemic herbicide that inhibits an enzyme common to almost every living plant that photosynthesizes, including lespedeza and grasses. If you have the experience of "burning off the tops", you have applied way too high of a rate. It has absolutely zero, nada, no residual activity which makes it a good choice for pre-plant or area renovation applications. Understand that subsequent germinating plants will not be affected. Good point though.. it is non-selective and will kill desireable plants in the treatment area.

    I would caution against Plateau or similar products if you intend to re-seed soon after treatment. aint gonna work.
  4. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    AMS, if my memory serves me (it should I've got 2 bags i'm trippin over at the farm,,but that don't mean nothin) is ammonia sulfate. It was described to me as making water wetter so the plant absorbs more. Some describe it as a sticking agent

    Fertilizer,,,,don't overlook the value of crop rotation in your plots from legumes to grasses (wheat , oats) or brassicas (turnips ,rape) to reduce the amount of nitrogen you need for your non legumes . It also helps reduce the chances of plant disease in some plant species.

    myth debunking,,,,,,, there is no golden egg when it comes to foodplot mixes. Certain plant types may produce great results in one area and not in another. (or from one year to another)

  5. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    Henry.. ammonium sulfate is commonly used in ag for lots of reasons, none of which have been specifically or technically defined. I see increased activity with the addition of ag-grade granular ams under certain circumstances... Lotsa people add it as a sort of insurance cause its cheap.

    Lots of companies are hawking liquid forms of this that contain other surfactants that cause increased surfactancy or "sticking" but trust me, ams in its pure form does not make the spray solutions "stickier"... it does, however, alter the pH of spray solutions that can, in some cases, add efficacy. It can also help compatibility if you have tank-mixes with other herbicides or insecticides.

    Hey.. if you like ams, go ahead and add your 17pounds/100gals of spray solution. Its cheap enough.
  6. igor

    igor Active Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    jeez i was gonna say somethin' but i'm thinkin i know nothin. what in the
    heck do you do for a livin rat.
  7. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    Not gunna say.. but I have 17yrs of experience wiff herbicides and various cropping systems... just trying to put my 2cents. :eek:
  8. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    BTW.. I love to hear about everyones experiences.. you never know all there is to know. I am admittedly weak on food plot situations so I always like to hear from those folks. Lotsa food-plot experts here for sure! and I aint one of them! :wave:
  9. igor

    igor Active Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    me nyther bubba :neuspeuter:
  10. Thayer

    Thayer New Member

    Dec 17, 2005
    Imperial, Mo
    Hey rat, what can you tell us about Select herbicide...I have some newly planted alfalfa plots and want to give it a chance to out compete some old fescue ground.

    I also want to know if a tank mix is available for Select and 24db.

    I am looking at rates of 8oz/acre, 10 gallons of water/acre, using the Select. We have a crop oil surfactant that we are intending to use also. Do you have some tips or suggestions?

    What kind of prices should I be preparing to pay for Select...I know you have to have an applicators license to buy it, but I think my connections can help me out with that.

    Thanks Rat, you are a valuable resource to food plotters here on MWT!!!
  11. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    Warm season grasses seem to be the exception to that rule. The residule affect of plateau seems to reduce weed and grass infestation longer without interfearing with the slower emerging warm season grasses. You just have to make sure you spray early enough in the season.

  12. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    You got it Henry.. the key here is not to re-seed SOON after treatment..
  13. rat

    rat Legbone

    Dec 13, 2005
    Thayer... Select (clethodim) is in the same class of chemistry as Poast (sethoxydim) which I have talked about before. It is a grass-specific herbicide labeled for over the top control of annual and perennial grass species in broadleaf crops such as the alfalfa you mention. I would apply when grasses are actively growing, not under any kind of heat or drought stress and target grasses up to 6-8" tall and not beyond for maximum control. This product is slowly degraded in the soil but under normal use rates, it will have insufficient soil activity to adequately prevent germination of subsequent grasses. Remember, by then your alfalfa should canopy and out-compete most other species. It sounded like you seeded your alfalfa at bout 15#/a if I remember right... That should be ok but have a look mid-summer and see if you need to re-treat... you might just get by with spot-treating at this point.

    It is commonly noted that some other herbicides tank-mixed with clethodim will antagonize or minimize the control you will get on grasses and among those commonly listed is 2,4-d's and similar. I would avoid this tankmix so that you get max suppression and kill on the grasses... Plus, I get a little nervous about applying a broadleaf weed killer on a broadleaf crop, but I know that 2,4-DB can be safe if applied right. In time, you should have a good crop of alf... Is this a food plot or production area? If its a food plot, I wouldnt worry so much about occasional infestations of broadleaves.

    Good crop-oil concentrate is a must for max control with select and I believe the rate is 1% by volume in the spray solution but check the label. The 8oz/A rate you mentioned should be fine and 10GPA is adequate as well, flat fan nozzle (I prefer turbo tee-jets).

    As always, read the label! Hope this helps..
  14. MUHunter

    MUHunter New Member

    Aug 13, 2003
    NE MO

    Sounds like a man in the know :D