Missouri Whitetails - Your Missouri Hunting Resource banner

121 - 140 of 191 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
666 Posts
I have always wondered about this so I asked a turkey biologist about this, and he said if you apply trapping pressure within the current regulation guidelines and are catching less and less each year, that it is plausible that you may be reducing populations of those critters locally. That makes sense to me.

Anyway, if it doesnt take time away from habitat management and you still have time to do it, its fun and enjoyable, there is no downside.
Of all the claims made concerning trapping, the one that gets me most is when they claim you can't reduce the population of mesomammals, particularly racoons, enough to make a difference unless you're trapping right during the nesting season.

Here is a record I kept of racoons, opossums, and skunks
DSC00793.JPG
trapped on our property from 2009 through 2014:

In 2009-2010 I was just doing some general trapping and you can see I took 19 racoons and 19 opossums, which obviously wasn't going to impact the population. In 2010-2011 we put in more effort and took 76 racoons and 33 opossums. At the time we pulled the traps, we knew from the catch rate that there were still several racoons there. In 2011- 2012, we kept the traps out to reduce the population as much as we could, and by the end of season there were very few left. As you can see we took 107 racoons and 33 opossums that year. At this point the catch rate became very low. I should also mention another trapper took over 50 racoons on property to the west of us. Now look at 2012-2013. Despite the claims of moving back in, I already knew there weren't near the racoons simply because of the lack of sign. However, I was still surprised by how few racoons were actually there a full year later. I kept the same number of traps set for 3 weeks and only caught a total of 7 racoons, less than I could easily catch the first night in previous years. Even in 2013-2014 the numbers were still low. I didn't put in the same amount of effort as previous years, but it took enough effort to just catch 9 racoons that I knew there still weren't a lot of racoons there. Incidentally, camera data plus visual sightings clearly support that 2012 and 2013 were the best turkey reproduction we've had. I can understand when people want to make the claim that the increased turkey production was just coincidental, even though I disagree. But I'll never buy the claim you can't significantly reduce the population of racoons locally, because rather than just talk about it I've actually tried and done it.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #122 ·
Of all the claims made concerning trapping, the one that gets me most is when they claim you can't reduce the population of mesomammals, particularly racoons, enough to make a difference unless you're trapping right during the nesting season.

Here is a record I kept of racoons, opossums, and skunks View attachment 221008 trapped on our property from 2009 through 2014:

In 2009-2010 I was just doing some general trapping and you can see I took 19 racoons and 19 opossums, which obviously wasn't going to impact the population. In 2010-2011 we put in more effort and took 76 racoons and 33 opossums. At the time we pulled the traps, we knew from the catch rate that there were still several racoons there. In 2011- 2012, we kept the traps out to reduce the population as much as we could, and by the end of season there were very few left. As you can see we took 107 racoons and 33 opossums that year. At this point the catch rate became very low. I should also mention another trapper took over 50 racoons on property to the west of us. Now look at 2012-2013. Despite the claims of moving back in, I already knew there weren't near the racoons simply because of the lack of sign. However, I was still surprised by how few racoons were actually there a full year later. I kept the same number of traps set for 3 weeks and only caught a total of 7 racoons, less than I could easily catch the first night in previous years. Even in 2013-2014 the numbers were still low. I didn't put in the same amount of effort as previous years, but it took enough effort to just catch 9 racoons that I knew there still weren't a lot of racoons there. Incidentally, camera data plus visual sightings clearly support that 2012 and 2013 were the best turkey reproduction we've had. I can understand when people want to make the claim that the increased turkey production was just coincidental, even though I disagree. But I'll never buy the claim you can't significantly reduce the population of racoons locally, because rather than just talk about it I've actually tried and done it.
You can lower the number of raccoons, but you wont lower the number of predators. And it wont make a difference in turkey production in June.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,135 Posts
A closed mind is a
MDC isnt going to change trapping rules.
MDC has mentioned repeatedly that they are concerned with the decline in turkey numbers and so are other states, especially in the SE to central US. It sure doesn't make sense that MDC's only fix would be to allow more time to kill turkeys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 20'

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #124 ·
A closed mind is a

MDC has mentioned repeatedly that they are concerned with the decline in turkey numbers and so are other states, especially in the SE to central US. It sure doesn't make sense that MDC's only fix would be to allow more time to kill turkeys.
Its not a fix, but its wont hurt either. In fact, it has nothing to do with declines or increases.

MDC is doing all it can do. They are doing all they are going to do. They are studying poult survival and habitat/predator interactions and will give those results to landowners. Thats all they can do.

If you think hunting regulations are the answer tell that to the whiporwills, the grouse, the meadowlarks, etc. They all have similar declines and arent hunted in MO.
 

·
Under appreciated
Joined
·
87,496 Posts
Of all the claims made concerning trapping, the one that gets me most is when they claim you can't reduce the population of mesomammals, particularly racoons, enough to make a difference unless you're trapping right during the nesting season.

Here is a record I kept of racoons, opossums, and skunks View attachment 221008 trapped on our property from 2009 through 2014:

In 2009-2010 I was just doing some general trapping and you can see I took 19 racoons and 19 opossums, which obviously wasn't going to impact the population. In 2010-2011 we put in more effort and took 76 racoons and 33 opossums. At the time we pulled the traps, we knew from the catch rate that there were still several racoons there. In 2011- 2012, we kept the traps out to reduce the population as much as we could, and by the end of season there were very few left. As you can see we took 107 racoons and 33 opossums that year. At this point the catch rate became very low. I should also mention another trapper took over 50 racoons on property to the west of us. Now look at 2012-2013. Despite the claims of moving back in, I already knew there weren't near the racoons simply because of the lack of sign. However, I was still surprised by how few racoons were actually there a full year later. I kept the same number of traps set for 3 weeks and only caught a total of 7 racoons, less than I could easily catch the first night in previous years. Even in 2013-2014 the numbers were still low. I didn't put in the same amount of effort as previous years, but it took enough effort to just catch 9 racoons that I knew there still weren't a lot of racoons there. Incidentally, camera data plus visual sightings clearly support that 2012 and 2013 were the best turkey reproduction we've had. I can understand when people want to make the claim that the increased turkey production was just coincidental, even though I disagree. But I'll never buy the claim you can't significantly reduce the population of racoons locally, because rather than just talk about it I've actually tried and done it.
When this was first debated here, we were told that catching less ***** couldnt be because you were affecting the local population, so it was because the ***** were getting trap shy.
What is your take on that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 20'

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,657 Posts
Its not a fix, but its wont hurt either. In fact, it has nothing to do with declines or increases.

MDC is doing all it can do. They are doing all they are going to do. They are studying poult survival and habitat/predator interactions and will give those results to landowners. Thats all they can do.

If you think hunting regulations are the answer tell that to the whiporwills, the grouse, the meadowlarks, etc. They all have similar declines and arent hunted in MO.
so, there are PLENTY of turkey hunters and you want to liberalize the season for a select few that CHOOSE not to participate under the current format (during the worst turkey production EVER), yet you don't want to increase opportunity for trapping and recruiting kids and others into trapping???
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #127 ·
so, there are PLENTY of turkey hunters and you want to liberalize the season for a select few that CHOOSE not to participate under the current format (during the worst turkey production EVER), yet you don't want to increase opportunity for trapping and recruiting kids and others into trapping???
There arent plenty of turkey hunters.

Trapping isnt using the 3 months they have now. Adding more time will not help more people learn to trap.

Spring turkey season is THE MOST RESTRICTIVE SEASON MDC has. Adding more opportunity, as we saw last year, will get more hunters in the woods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,657 Posts
There arent plenty of turkey hunters.

Trapping isnt using the 3 months they have now. Adding more time will not help more people learn to trap.

Spring turkey season is THE MOST RESTRICTIVE SEASON MDC has. Adding more opportunity, as we saw last year, will get more hunters in the woods.
the pandemic got more into the woods, how slow are you? WOW! How you relate a spike in hunter numbers duringa pandemic to hunters crying out for ADH is absurd!
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #129 ·
the pandemic got more into the woods, how slow are you? WOW! How you relate a spike in hunter numbers duringa pandemic to hunters crying out for ADH is absurd!
Hunters have been crying out for years. Decades actually. The pandemic showed that they would actually follow thru if given more time.

Whats absurd is your argument that we wont get new hunters to hunt with ADH all the while complaining that hunter numbers might go up because if ADH... THAT is what we like to call a conundrum...
Screenshot_20210524-143039_Email.jpg
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,184 Posts
Hunters have been crying out for years. Decades actually. The pandemic showed that they would actually follow thru if given more time.

Whats absurd is your argument that we wont get new hunters to hunt with ADH all the while complaining that hunter numbers might go up because if ADH... THAT is what we like to call a conundrum... View attachment 221012
Haven't you said to not listen to the hunters and listen to the biologist? Which damn one is it? Listen to them when it benefits you but act like they are morons when they are on the other side of the arguement?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 20'

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,657 Posts
Hunters have been crying out for years. Decades actually. The pandemic showed that they would actually follow thru if given more time.

Whats absurd is your argument that we wont get new hunters to hunt with ADH all the while complaining that hunter numbers might go up because if ADH... THAT is what we like to call a conundrum... View attachment 221012
the pandemic showed absolutely nothing like you claim, other than people will give up their freedoms for nothing!
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #132 ·
Haven't you said to not listen to the hunters and listen to the biologist? Which damn one is it? Listen to them when it benefits you but act like they are morons when they are on the other side of the arguement?
What biologists am I not listening to?
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #133 ·
the pandemic showed absolutely nothing like you claim, other than people will give up their freedoms for nothing!
MDC disagrees
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
666 Posts
When this was first debated here, we were told that catching less * couldnt be because you were affecting the local population, so it was because the * were getting trap shy.
What is your take on that?
Certainly racoons can become trap shy. In studies where they tagged and released racoons, they've found that they were oftentimes more difficult to catch a second time. But none of the racoons I caught got a second chance. When I made this effort to reduce the population I focused on using dogproofs primarily because I can eliminate misses, which means the only way they can become educated is if they can learn from seeing their buddy in a trap. But there were still some racoons that I couldn't catch. I actually put some cameras on some out of curiosity, and although they never went for the trap, they didn't necessarily act shy of the trap either. So I don't know for sure what caused their individual behavior, but at the same time, overall I'm very certain that I caught the vast majority of the racoons there. I'm also very certain there was very limited filling back in. This is just an opinion, but I think part of the reason that populations can seem to fill back in quickly, is that in most cases, people are not catching a high enough percentage of the females. In order for me to reduce the numbers so low, I had to "go get" a lot of the females. Many of them simply weren't traveling very far from the den tree, and I had to set the traps right on a lot of the females to catch them. But after catching 60 females, I don't know how anyone could believe that eliminating that many litters of young wouldn't have a significant effect on the population locally.
 

·
Biology nit wit exposer
Joined
·
80,689 Posts
Of all the claims made concerning trapping, the one that gets me most is when they claim you can't reduce the population of mesomammals, particularly racoons, enough to make a difference unless you're trapping right during the nesting season.

Here is a record I kept of racoons, opossums, and skunks View attachment 221008 trapped on our property from 2009 through 2014:

In 2009-2010 I was just doing some general trapping and you can see I took 19 racoons and 19 opossums, which obviously wasn't going to impact the population. In 2010-2011 we put in more effort and took 76 racoons and 33 opossums. At the time we pulled the traps, we knew from the catch rate that there were still several racoons there. In 2011- 2012, we kept the traps out to reduce the population as much as we could, and by the end of season there were very few left. As you can see we took 107 racoons and 33 opossums that year. At this point the catch rate became very low. I should also mention another trapper took over 50 racoons on property to the west of us. Now look at 2012-2013. Despite the claims of moving back in, I already knew there weren't near the racoons simply because of the lack of sign. However, I was still surprised by how few racoons were actually there a full year later. I kept the same number of traps set for 3 weeks and only caught a total of 7 racoons, less than I could easily catch the first night in previous years. Even in 2013-2014 the numbers were still low. I didn't put in the same amount of effort as previous years, but it took enough effort to just catch 9 racoons that I knew there still weren't a lot of racoons there. Incidentally, camera data plus visual sightings clearly support that 2012 and 2013 were the best turkey reproduction we've had. I can understand when people want to make the claim that the increased turkey production was just coincidental, even though I disagree. But I'll never buy the claim you can't significantly reduce the population of racoons locally, because rather than just talk about it I've actually tried and done it.
Actual raccoon research confirms that it takes reproduction to fill a population back in. Raccoons don't disperse at a high percentage so dispersal doesn't fill areas in quickly.

Fill in,? This is an assumption not supported by raccoon research just like coyotes and bobcats controlling raccoon populations is not supported by research.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #136 ·
Actual raccoon research confirms that it takes reproduction to fill a population back in. Raccoons don't disperse at avhifh percentage so dispersal doesn't fill areas in quickly.

Fill in,? This is an assumption not supported by raccoon research just like coyotes and bobcats controlling raccoon populations is not supported by research.
That is 100% false. Thats why when trappers in research projects trap over several month from April-August they never stop getting animals. If what you say were true they could trap for a month hard and stop.

Coyotes are raccoon predators. They keep that population in check. Lashley confirmed that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,635 Posts
That An animal with a 2-4 square mile home range won’t find and fill in vacant prime habitat must be some kind of new biological theory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hawk

·
Biology nit wit exposer
Joined
·
80,689 Posts
20210615_084920.jpg
20210225_130603.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: 20'

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #139 ·
Then why do they continually catch raccoons in predator removal studies..????
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
63,515 Posts
Discussion Starter · #140 ·
What henry doesnt want you to know is that the treatment area for that study was 30 sq miles. Raccoons didnt push in to the interior of that immediately... why would they?

Henrys treament area is 120xs smaller than theirs....
 
121 - 140 of 191 Posts
Top