2017 TURKEY BROOD REPORT provide some food for thought.

Discussion in 'Turkey Hunting General' started by hazelvillebucks, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. hazelvillebucks

    hazelvillebucks Well-Known Member

    Oct 28, 2014
    Some numbers are out for the 2017 nesting season. Statewide THE H TO P RATIO WAS AGAIN A PITIFUL .8. In the northeast region where i am the h to p ratio was1.1. A REAL REASON WHY the h to p ratio was so pitiful is found when it is reported that only 35 percent of the hens had a brood.
    Believing that the long term numbers collected by mdc are not lying and in fact show that what is possible in turkey production up here move in lock step with the bait station reports on coon population density. The coon population density has multiplied 5 times since 1989 while the state has lost over 75 percent of the turkey.The problem is a bear market is coon fur prices.
    In my case i spent some of the long term built up coon frustration on knocking there population back. IN MY CASE REMOVING 70 COON 9 SKUNK AND 19 POSSUM BEFORE LAST YEARS HATCH.
    Of course only having 35 percent of the hens in the region being shown to have had the ability to hatch a egg would hurt the hen to pout ratio.But IN MY CASE AFTER THE ADJUSTMENT DOWN PAYMENT ON EGG SUCKER DENSITY I HAD 11 OF 14 HENS THAT HAD A BROOD.INSTEAD OF A HEN TO POUT RATIO OF 1.1 CHICKS PER HEN I HAD 3.57 CHICKS PER HEN.
    one year does not prove that what all those numbers have been telling us is correct but the results for year one are what they should have been if we have the answer at last. I am not yet done with the self cure for mad coon disease but next years turkey hatch will be minus another 82 coon and 16 possum. From looking at the age and sex of the coon now being removed i am confident that the coon population density is falling off of the 28 year ledge of multiplying density.Where the sex ratio of the first 70 coon was pretty close to equal and the sex of the older mature coon was also pretty equal. the majority of the coon being removed are now yearlings and male yearlings. OUT OF THE LAST 11 MATURE COON REMOVED 2 WERE FEMALE.
    Others also have responded to what they see is a real problem, i would expect there results to diverge from the control area in similar big time ways.I am totally confident that even if the weather for hatching a egg this year is the worst we have seen in the last 29 years the results at Hazelville will be better than the region next year because to have the eggs sucked you have to have the female egg suckers to give us the out of control egg sucking pests in diversity destroying density.
    How about it Henry did you year one results blow the pitiful production of do wrong / do nothing out of the water. I am still waiting for Hawk to tell us how bad the fur harvest of the racoon was last year. MY guess is that the numbers of coon furs sold last year in the state of MISSOURI will be under 20,000 furs , and a new record low for the chart which has been collected since 1944. As we already know the coon havest was 200,000 in 10 out of the 20 years previous to 1989. and fell below 150,000 only 3 times .
     
  2. 20'

    20' Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2017
    It seems crazy to think that the furbearers are not a big part of the population fall. We need fur prices to sky rocket!!!
     

  3. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    Furbearers are a symptom, not the disease. If there is a disease, its people not understanding what good turkey habitat is, and how to provide it. Excellent deer habitat doesnt mean its excellent turkey PRODUCING habitat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  4. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    THE BOUNTY HUNTER

    Aug 21, 2012

    Bill White

    From time to time we receive questions on why the Department doesn’t offer a bounty to control predators. At first glance the concept sounds simple. Offer folks a little money to turn in raccoon tails, snake heads and coyote ears and they’ll harvest more. If they harvest more, that means there will be more deer, turkey, quail and rabbit for hunters to harvest. Sounds simple enough.

    I Was A Preschool Bounty Hunter

    Heck, in the early 1960s, when I was growing up in southeast Nebraska I was actually a preschool bounty hunter. Unfortunately, there will never be a TV show about my bounty hunter escapades. My very first recollection of wildlife was a coyote den that each year we smoked the coyotes from and turned in for a bounty. Despite a yearly raid on the den, there always seemed to be coyotes in it each spring. It was always my duty to shine a light down one entrance to the den and yell out if I saw the coyotes or catch the pups if they attempted to escape. It was very exciting to see the glow of the pup’s eyes as they passed by this particular den entrance. Fortunately, I never did have to catch one!

    We would go with my grandfather to turn in the coyote ears at the courthouse to collect the bounty. With the few dollars we earned we would head for the drive-in and partake in the treasured root-beer float. Such were the days in the life of a preschool bounty hunter. In spite of the bounty we still had coyotes and fox raid the chicken yard on a regular basis. Enough coyotes survived the bounty for the local coyote hunters to still pursue their prey. So, bounty hunting was a paying proposition for a preschooler, but did it get rid of the coyotes?

    What History Tells Us

    We only need to look at history to see bounties are ineffective at improving game species, are costly and do little to recruit new hunters. A cash reward for dead animals is hardly a new concept. A variety of wildlife has had a price on its head as early as the 17th century when the first white settlers arrived in North America. Even Missouri had a bounty for coyotes back in the 1850s and 1930s(for the record, I didn’t have a chance to participate in Missouri’s coyote bounty). In the past, states have offered bounties on coyotes, rattlesnakes, copperheads, groundhogs, beavers, foxes, cougars, wolves, bear and even porcupines. Some states still offer bounties to “control” coyotes, gophers, nutria, beaver and ground squirrels.

    Do they work?

    The short answer is "no," at least not if the goal is to reduce a predator's population, recruit new hunters or improve game populations. In addition, there may be unintended consequences and your time can be spent doing better activities.

    Let’s look at what happened in Missouri when we had a bounty system on coyotes from 1936-1947. A study of this bounty system showed that while it resulted in the destruction of large numbers of predators, it did not reduce the damage to livestock or the number of complaints. “Eleven years of bounty figures offers no evidence that the population of coyotes has been reduced thereby.”

    They also compared the bounty system to hiring “government trappers” to respond to landowner complaints of coyotes killing livestock. They determined it was effective in reducing problem-causing coyotes, but was too expensive for the counties to continue and did nothing to reduce the overall coyote population. It was noted at that time the most cost-effective method is what the Department does presently, train landowners to trap problem predators which are killing livestock.

    The Reality

    Animals living in the wild operate under their own set of rules governed by the cycles of habitat, weather and food availability. Populations fluctuate; predators eat their prey. Under heavy pressure, furbearers will move or mate at an earlier age and have larger litters. Reduce the population of one predator and others may spike. For example, remove foxes from an area and you may see an increase in smaller rodents that eat quail eggs. Remove coyotes and you could see an increase in foxes, skunks, possums and raccoons.

    It’s much easier to point the finger at the big, bad coyote, evil bobcat, rugged red-tailed hawk or rascally raccoon than look at habitat conditions that affect the nesting success of quail, turkey and other early successional wildlife.

    Predator Management

    A better alternative is to “predator proof” your farm by improving wildlife habitat. Now, you won’t exactly “predator proof” the farm but you can definitely make it better for wildlife and harder for predators by providing the types of habitat quail, turkey, deer and rabbits need.

    For turkeys I’m a big fan of improving nesting and brooding habitat by planting native warm-season grasses and wildflowers; edge feathering; timber stand improvement; and woodland restoration. The same can be said for folks interested in managing their property for deer. Protective cover for fawns is absolutely critical so plant several small fields or field corners to native warm-season grass. Timber stand improvement and small clear-cuts are also very beneficial to deer and turkey. Heck, the biggest buck I ever saw was in the middle of an area edge feathered. I don’t have a clue how he got in there but he exploded out of the patch in a split second. Periodic management with prescribed fire, managed grazing, strip disking and invasive plant control is also important. Sounds a lot like quail habitat doesn’t it?

    Now there’s nothing wrong with furbearer trapping or varmint hunting in the fall and winter. In fact, fur prices were pretty good last year. Raccoon pelts averaged almost $12 and red fox was over $33 per pelt. The simple truth is trapping and varmint hunting provides a great recreational activity and a little income on the side. Just don’t think controlling predators, especially with a bounty, will improve game production. Good habitat is still the key.
     
  5. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    I still can't believe there are people stupid enough to think all the predators removed don't influence the number you have . Lol.
     
    DCSarchette and 20' like this.
  6. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    I still cant believe there are people that think they are smarter than the biologists.
     
  7. hazelvillebucks

    hazelvillebucks Well-Known Member

    Oct 28, 2014
    IF the story of the turkey and the out of control , into everything , property damaging, diversity robbing 500 percent population increased pest racoon can be not seen by the biologists as what they have become and what they are doing to the diversity of our Forrest and fields then they are not true scientific biologists.
    Tonight there is a special on CNN called trophy's. I do not know what there spin will be but it will point out why Wildlife management can no longer be considered a science. There are things that are broken , there are things that have to be fixed. Even the worst SCIENTIFIC BIOLOGIST COULD LOOK AT THE DATA AND TELL YOU THERE IS CORRELATION TO THE POINT OF CONSTANTLY INCREASING CAUSATION .
    HOW ABOUT IT HAWK WAS LAST YEARS RACOON HARVEST THE WORST IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHART ? WILL THIS YEARS BE ANY BETTER?How about it HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY NO ONE WHO MAKES A ADJUSTMENT TO THE SMOKING GUN CONSTANTLY INCREASING VARIABLE OF A EGG SUCKER GONE WILD AND OUT OF CONTROL will see A HUGH JUMP IN THE ABILITY OF A TURKEY TO HAVE A BROOD, WITH THE CORRESPONDING JUMP IN THE HEN TO POUT RATIO.
    FOR THE SECOND STRAIGHT YEAR KNOWING WHAT THE RACOON PELT SALES WAS ALL THAT WAS NEEDED TO KNOW THE HATCH WAS TOAST BEFORE A EGG WAS EVER LAID. One can still find no one to buy coon BUT IN THE TOAST OF A HATCH THAT WILL COME THIS SPRING THERE WILL BE MORE OASIS OF HOPE AS MORE PEOPLE DECIDE THE ARE NOT GOING TO JUST SET THERE AND WATCH THE TURKEY DECLINE INTO NOTHING. WHEN THEY DO SOMETHING THEY WILL SEE THE RESULTS IN REVERSE LIKE WE HAVE SEEN THE LAST 29 YEARS WHILE WAITING FOR THE ANSWER TO A SIMPLE QUESTION.
    The smoking gun came gift wrapped in the proof of good long term scientific data.
     
  8. 20'

    20' Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2017
    I bet Hawks don't help either, those sobs are everywhere. When egg suckers and aerial predators are at all time highs, that cannot be a good thing for their prey numbers???
     
  9. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    You can't lower raptor numbers before nesting season . Coons and opossums you can. The trick is to remove alot.
     
    DCSarchette likes this.
  10. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    Its just to bad that thise diamond shoes you stumbled in are to tight....

    Buncha whiny people living in one of the top 2 turkey states in the nation.
     
  11. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    Th real trick to removing any predator is to do it during nesting season, which is illegal in Mo.
     
  12. hazelvillebucks

    hazelvillebucks Well-Known Member

    Oct 28, 2014
    YOUR MYTHS HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED FOR JUST WHAT THEY ARE , MYTHS.
     
  13. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    Screenshot_20180110-104055.jpg
     
  14. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    No trick to removing localized predators during nesting season. You kill them in the winter and they are still dead during nesting season. :rofl:
     
    DCSarchette likes this.
  15. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    Predators removed during any other time than near nesting allows for plenty of immigration and dispersal to disturb the same amount of nests.
     
  16. Hooks

    Hooks Well-Known Member

    Aug 20, 2010
    Down the bayou
    Which came first the eggsucker or the egg? Hmmmm

    Dead eggsuckers suck no eggs.
    Live eggsuckers replace dead eggsuckers.
    Missouri sucks as a turkey state.
    Biologists don't know diddly.
    And to think I moved here cause I thought Missouri was turkey heaven.
     
    Dafish and Hawk like this.
  17. 20'

    20' Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2017
    If doesn't work in the fall, why on earth would it work during Spring? Anytime you kill stuff it helps, no matter how' briefly it may be! Disclaimer, I understand why during the spring it may benefit, but by your own argument other coyotes would move in immediately
     
  18. 20'

    20' Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2017
    It was a turkey heaven, due to the egg suckers being kept thinned out, not the MDC who was dumb lucky and thunderchicken hunter's benefited! No the case deer wise!
     
  19. henry

    henry Fan Boy aka Mr Twisty and

    In the world where people ride unicorns predators fall from the heavens as fast as they are sent there. Lol
     
    DCSarchette likes this.
  20. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Oct 15, 2009
    These guys are wearing diamond slippers and whining about them being Sooo tight.... geniuses