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Related to turkey nesting and other Gallinaceous birds

20K views 729 replies 22 participants last post by  Hawk 
#1 ·
#3 ·
all Timbers recommends doing a predator survey or index on


Place 1 fatty acid tablet (FAS) in the center of each station. Researchers have shown that FAS tablets elicit a good response from coyotes, gray foxes and raccoons. We have good visitation rates from armadillos, bobcats and other mammals as well. Be careful handling the FAS tablets (please read the label!). -Courtesy of Tall Timbers Research Station

your lands. You can find more about how to do this on their website (http://talltimbers.org/measuring-the-predator-context-on-your-land-to-manage-predation-of-bobwhites/), but in a nutshell, they use a mineral oil and sand mix and place sand rings along roads, trails throughout their properties. They alternate sides of woods roads and trails about 500 yards apart. When the index reaches 20% or greater (meaning 1 out of 5 sand rings has fresh predator tracks in them) they recommend intense predator trapping.
With the historic data collected by mdc IN THE ANNUAL BAIT STATION SURVEY the quantification of the variables can be explored in even grater detail. mdc has the data bases that would allow one to know the reproductive potential of the wild turkey by only knowing the predator density.
VERY GOOD INFO.
 
#4 ·
Trapping thru february in a more southern area.... hmmmm.... it *MAY* create a window... hmmmm

Cant do that in MO.

And again. Theres been no study where people trapped on small acreage, stopped on jan 31, and had a significant increase in populations. NONE.

What has been shown, and I have personally seen and done is SIGNIFICANTLY, from virtually none to THRIVING quail populations thru improving habitat in North MO. We havent trapped or shot a SINGLE nest predator in years and we have 6-7 LARGE coveys on 160 acres along with several pheasants and a great turkey population. If predators were the issue we wouldnt have had the success we have.
 
#7 ·
Trapping thru february in a more southern area.... hmmmm.... it *MAY* create a window... hmmmm

Cant do that in MO.

And again. Theres been no study where people trapped on small acreage, stopped on jan 31, and had a significant increase in populations. NONE.

What has been shown, and I have personally seen and done is SIGNIFICANTLY, from virtually none to THRIVING quail populations thru improving habitat in North MO. We havent trapped or shot a SINGLE nest predator in years and we have 6-7 LARGE coveys on 160 acres along with several pheasants and a great turkey population. If predators were the issue we wouldnt have had the success we have.
Hmmm...I wonder how many more coveys your place would have if you trapped????

Have you ever done something "yourself" over a period of time, saw an improvement, and came to the conclusion that it helped with what you are trying to accomplish?

As Ezra said, you're wrong....again. The article proves this statement or if you won't accept that (which I'm sure of) it at least proves that all biologists don't agree with you.
 
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#6 ·
Prove your statement.
 
#20 ·
one old retired janitor from NASA is now an expert in biological studies....because he worked at NASA.

Im joking of course, just be careful in betting on absolutes in the animal kingdom.
THE POINT IS THAT ALL OF US WITH OUR VARIED LIFE EXPERIENCES , SKILL SETS ARE PART OF SOLUTIONS. The story of the biologist is the story of him being able to see beyond the BINDERS OF HIS PRECONCEIVED BIAS.
 
#11 ·
If this guy is some fringe hack I'm very surprised that the U of T would host is AND that it would get sponsorship from National Bobwhite Conservation Initiative.
He is advocating a LOT of habitat work as well as predator control.
 
#12 ·
Funny thing is, thats the only place i can find predstor control mentioned.

I see that there are some interesting names on the board... maybe Ill contact them and see what they say....

Im thinking this trapping may be an "isolated habitat" issue.
 
#13 ·
I think its some combination of both, and probably heavier on the habitat mgt but definatly a predator component doesnt hurt.
 
#16 ·
Ill ask a few questions and report back
 
#14 ·
Here is how it works....

Hawk finds a study that agrees with something he agrees with.....

From that point forward, this is the only "study" that holds any merit. Any study, or person that disagrees with his thought is incorrect, because it doesn't agree with a study he found. The fact that there are additional "studies" that don't agree with what he's saying is irrelevant, as the only studies that matter, or the ones that agree with his position....

Brilliant, eh? :D

I am just happy waterman brought us another gift that will keep on giving. We needed another turkey discussion like this.... :D

Carry on! :btt:
 
#15 ·
Here is how it works....

Hawk finds a study that agrees with something he agrees with.....

From that point forward, this is the only "study" that holds any merit. Any study, or person that disagrees with his thought is incorrect, because it doesn't agree with a study he found. The fact that there are additional "studies" that don't agree with what he's saying is irrelevant, as the only studies that matter, or the ones that agree with his position....

Brilliant, eh? :D

I am just happy waterman brought us another gift that will keep on giving. We needed another turkey discussion like this.... :D

Carry on! :btt:
Go ahead and find that study.... ni one has and ive been asking for a few years.
 
#24 ·
After reading more info by the author it appears that he is talking to large quail plantations in the south. Those areas may have the amount of ground (scale) to implement prrdator control in a way that could possibly help (minimum positive results). Most large plantations in the south have the ability to trap year round and more intensively than any landowner in MO could. As Adam Butler states, predator control must be "large scale, intensive, and continuous to produce minimum positive effects".
 
#25 ·
Here is another part of the same site...

Success [suh k-ses] (n) - the achievement of something desired, planned, or attempted.

What a great word. And so much better than her distant cousin, failure. We all want success. Most of us don't start the day ready to fail. Note: if you do, drink another cup of coffee… Just a small taste of success can motivate even the most uninspired.

As a quail manager, I'm no different than the rest of you {please refrain from commenting on that one}. You want more quail, I want more quail. See, we really aren't that different. In terms of quail restoration, success to each of us can mean different things: more birds in the hunting vest or more whistles of bobwhite heard from the front porch. However, it's probably safe to say that our idea of success in the quail arena is very similar. What may be different, though, is how that success is achieved. Allow me to elaborate.

Rare is the week that I don't receive at least one phone call from a landowner who wants more quail. And rare is the call that doesn't mention one of the many romanticized methods of quail management that I so dearly refer to as a "silver bullet".

Pen-raised birds, systems that act as a surrogate mother, predator control, supplemental feeding… The list goes on. Don't get me wrong, much research has been done on many of these tactics. Supplemental feeding, for example, may have its place, but as a whole these quick fixes have been attempted many times over the years. The results typically don't fit the definition above, because while you may have a desired outcome, it's usually not achieved.

Fast-forward to what many have considered Kentucky's most successful quail restoration endeavor of modern times: Shaker Village of Pleasant Hill. Prior to 2008 the property manager estimated that his 3,000 acre property held 6-10 wild coveys. Since then, nearly 1,000 acres of low quality habitat has been converted to excellent cover in a short amount of time. And in that same amount of time our surveys indicate that we went from an estimated 6-10 wild coveys to more than 35!

Success! And guess what? We did this with no silver bullets. We skipped the lowly silver and went straight for the gold - good habitat. Many might argue that the addition of pen-raised birds or surrogate systems would only increase our quail numbers. What do you think?
 
#26 ·
I really find it hard to believe it even needs to be sold. It's pretty sure to be beneficial if meso predator numbers are too high. There are slot of studies that have found that to be true.

By the way. Did someone say turkey ???? 38% 38% :soap:
 
#29 ·
one could almost stop reading after the opening line of this article, but what fun would that be :)

Early in my career I was guilty of arrogance in my statements that habitat alone was all that was needed to produce great populations of bobwhite quail
 
#30 ·
He was a good speaker and I recall one statement vividly…because coming from a former NASA scientist, it shot my credibility down a notch or two.

He said “The biologists will tell you nature reaches a balance on its own, and that you need not go messing around with it by doing predator control. Well…that may have been true back when there were lots of big predators and small predators, and back when the landscape was more natural…but right now, after all we have done to this landscape as humans…there is no such thing as balance. Things are out of whack, and if you want a lot of quail you need to do predator control.”
 
#31 ·
can you hear Hawk saying this??

I felt “bushwhacked” because no one told me this fellow would be a part of the tour. But once I swallowed my pride, I got to know this gentleman over the years. I came to realize that he was right in some ways.
 
#32 ·
Our own studies in Virginia also showed that there was no shortage of “nest predators” either. Animals such as raccoons, opossums, red and gray foxes, and skunks could take a severe toll on quail nests, even if they did not kill that many adult quail.
 
#33 ·
Our own studies in Virginia also showed that there was no shortage of "nest predators" either. Animals such as raccoons, opossums, red and gray foxes, and skunks could take a severe toll on quail nests, even if they did not kill that many adult quail.
"No shortage", not "there were to many any by removing them we got more quail"....

In fact, this guys other writing show that this isnt a viable option unless you have large plantations.
 
#34 ·
One statistic that sticks out in my mind from the Tall Timbers Quail Handbook is this: Quail produced on average 44% more chicks on areas where mid-range mammalian predators had been controlled versus areas where no control had been done. Predator trapping increased production and reduced variations in annual survival rates on trapped versus non-trapped areas. Raccoons, foxes, bobcats, opossums, and skunks are key culprits.
 
#37 ·
Any idea how many morr quail would be on a quail plantation in the south versus turkeys?
 
#51 ·
Got a response about this. Basically the blog was talking about large plantations that have large amounts of resources, land, and time. Plus, places that want "artificially high" quail numbers.... on smaller acreages, 80-200 acres hed recommend spending all your time and money on habitat. Pretty much what i thought.
 
#57 ·
Please show where they have said "major issue".
 
#59 ·
If the guy who did the study isn't named Mike be, the study is invalid today. Sorry , try again later.
 
#69 ·
Or just admit you really don't know what most people do or do not have time or resources for.
 
#76 ·
What I find incredible is the same argument regarding land ownership is the same one used by those who say managing deer and APR's only work if you are a large landholder. Where is the argument of cooperation between adjoining properties and all the other pro trophy deer management tactics. They are spouted ad nauseum and guys manage for trophy deer regardless of what their neighbors do. The best answer is to do both manage habitat and practice predator control. Look at the statements regarding the brood survival percentages and increased populations overall. Especially, the small difference in brood survival and a stable or increasing population.
 
#83 ·
Getting guys to pass small deer is much easier than getting a bunch of guys to band together and trap. Thats why APRs work even without large properties. It forces people to pass young bucks.

If you cpuld get a largw enough block of landowners to all trap in MO you still likely wouldnt see muvh benefit because of the timing. You cant stop on Jan 31 and expect results.

Those brood survival percentages only apply to quail. 40 coveys on 1000 acres is likely 500+ birds. Thats 250 nests. A good density of turkeys is MAYBE 80 total birds.... thats about 40 nests if all hens nest. The difference is huge. Plus, quail will renest several times per year...

The guy that wrote your article said he wouldnt devote any resources to trapping until EVERY habitat thing he could do was exhausted on small acreage. Then he MIGHT try it....
 
#94 ·
Oh, but they did...

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#96 ·
The 2 noted respected turkey and predator researchers dont know what they are talking about, but the Orschelns employee does..... seem logical....

Kinda like when the coyote researcher that the Orscheln employee told us he understood his research, then the researcher told us the Orschelns employee was wrong, then the Orschelns guy said the researcher was "full of ****"....[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
 
#100 ·
They are doing what predators do. When territories open up they fill in behind the ones thst were removed. When all the areas around the trapped farm lose obe predator they each have one less but the trapped area has a similar amount still
 
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